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	Empowering Men: fighting feminist lies
VIDEO TRANSCRIPT: TV journalist Cathy Newman’s grilling of Canadian psychologist Jordan Peterson Transcribed by Peter Zohrab on 27 January 2018 and proofread on 28 January 2018.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

1. CATHY NEWMAN: Jordan Peterson, you’ve said that men need to “grow the hell up.”  Tell me why.

2. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, because there’s nothing uglier than an old infant.  There’s nothing good about it.  People who don’t grow up don’t find the kind of meaning in their life that sustains them through difficult times -- and they are certain to encounter difficult times – and they’re left bitter and resentful and without purpose and adrift and hostile and resentful and vengeful and arrogant and deceitful and of no use to themselves and of no use to anyone else and no partner for a woman and there’s nothing in it that’s good. 

3. CATHY NEWMAN: That sounds pretty bad.

4. JORDAN PETERSON: It is bad!

5. CATHY NEWMAN: You’re saying there’s a crisis of masculinity.  What do you do about it?

6. JORDAN PETERSON: You tell … help people understand why it’s necessary and important for them to grow up and accept responsibility, why that isn’t a “shake your finger and get your act together” kind of thing, why it’s more like a delineation of the kind of destiny that makes life worth living.  I’ve been telling young men – but I wasn’t specifically aiming this message at young men, to begin with.  It just kind of turned out that way.              

7. CATHY NEWMAN: And you admit that it’s mainly men listening.

8. JORDAN PETERSON: It is. 

9. CATHY NEWMAN:  Your audiences are male, right?

10. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, it’s about 80% on Youtube.  Youtube is a male domain, primarily, so it’s hard to say how much of it is because Youtube is male and how much of it is because of what I’m saying, but I’ve been telling young men that there’s an actual reason why they need to grow up, which is that they have something to offer, you know, that people have within themselves this capacity to set the World straight that it’s necessary to manifest in the World and that also, that doing so is where you find the meaning that sustains you in life. 

11. CATHY NEWMAN: So what’s gone wrong, then?

12. JORDAN PETERSON: Oh God!  All sorts of things have gone wrong.  I don’t think that young men hear words of encouragement – some of them never in their entire lives, as far as I can tell.  That's what they tell me and the fact that the words that I’ve been speaking, the Youtube lectures that I’ve done and put online, for example, have had such a dramatic impact is an indication that young men are starving for this kind of message, because why in the World would they have to derive it from a lecture on Youtube?    Now they’re not being taught that it’s important to develop yourself.

13. CATHY NEWMAN: Does it bother you that your audience is predominantly male?  Isn’t that a bit divisive?

14. JORDAN PETERSON: No, I don’t think so… I mean, it’s no more divisive than the fact that Youtube is primarily male and Tumblr is primarily women.  Tumblr is primarily female.

15. CATHY NEWMAN:  You're just saying that that’s the way it is.

16. JORDAN PETERSON: I’m not saying anything.  It’s just an observation that that’s the way it is.  There are plenty of women who are watching my lectures and coming to my lectures and buying my books.  It’s just that the majority of them happen to be men. 

17. CATHY NEWMAN: What’s in it for the women, though?

18. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, what sort of partner do you want?  Do you want an overgrown child?  Or do you want someone to contend with, that’s going to help you, that you can rely on? 

19. CATHY NEWMAN: You’re saying that women have some sort of duty to sort of help fix the crisis of masculinity.

20. JORDAN PETERSON: It depends on what they want, you know.  It’s exactly how I laid it out.  Women want, deeply want men who are competent and powerful.  And I don’t mean “power” in that they can exert tyrannical control over others.  That’s not power.  That’s just corruption.  Power is competence and why in the World would you not want a competent partner?  Well, I know why, actually.  You can’t dominate a competent partner.  So if you want to dominate, ….

21. CATHY NEWMAN: So you’re saying that women want to dominate.

22. JORDAN PETERSON: No, I’d say that women who have had their relationships impaired and who are afraid of such relationships will settle for a weak partner, because they can dominate them, but it’s a sub-optimal solution. 

23. CATHY NEWMAN: Do you think that that’s what a lot of women are doing?

24. JORDAN PETERSON: I think there’s a substantial minority of women who do that and I think it’s very bad for them, they’re very unhappy, it’s very bad for their partners, although their partners get the advantage of not having to take any responsibility. 

25. CATHY NEWMAN: But what gives you the right to say that?  I mean, maybe that’s the way women want to have their relationships – those women.  I mean, you’re making these vast generalisations.

26. JORDAN PETERSON: I’m a Clinical Psychologist. 

27. CATHY NEWMAN: You’re saying, you’ve done your research and women are unhappy dominating men. 

28. JORDAN PETERSON: I didn’t say they were unhappy dominating men.  I said it was a bad long-term solution.  That’s not the same thing.

29. CATHY NEWMAN:             But you said it was making them miserable.

30. JORDAN PETERSON: Yes, yes.  It depends on the time-frame.  There’s intense pleasure in momentary domination.  That’s why people do it all the time, but it’s no formula for a successful long-term relationship.  That’s reciprocal, right?  Any long-term relationship is reciprocal – virtually by definition. 

31. CATHY NEWMAN: Let me put a point to you from the book, where you say there are whole disciplines in universities forthrightly hostile towards men.  These are the areas of study dominated by the Postmodern/Neo-Marxist claim that Western culture, in particular, is an oppressive structure, created by White men to dominate and exclude women. 

32. JORDAN PETERSON: Minorities, too.

33. CATHY NEWMAN:  OK, sure.  But I want to put it to you that here in the UK, for example – let’s take that as an example – the gender pay-gap stands at just over nine percent.  You’ve got women at the BBC, for example, recently saying that the broadcaster is illegally paying them less than men for doing the same job.  You’ve got only seven women running the top FTSE-100 companies.  So it seems to a lot of women that they’re still being “dominated and excluded”, to quote your words back to you.    

34. JORDAN PETERSON: It does seem that way, but multivariate analysis of the pay gap indicates that it doesn’t exist.

35. CATHY NEWMAN: But that’s not true, is it? 

36. JORDAN PETERSON: It’s absolutely true.

37. CATHY NEWMAN: A nine percent pay gap – that’s a gap between median hourly earnings between men and women.    That exists.

38. JORDAN PETERSON: Yes, but there are multiple reasons for that.  One of them is gender, but it’s not the only reason.  If you’re a Social Scientist worth your salt, you never do a univariate analysis.  I could say that women, in aggregate, are paid less than men.  OK, then we break it down by age, we break it down by occupation, we break it down by interest, we break it down by personality.   

39. CATHY NEWMAN: But you’re saying basically it doesn’t matter if women aren’t getting to the top, because that’s what’s skewing that gender pay gap, isn’t it?  You’re saying that that’s just a fact of life. 

40. JORDAN PETERSON: Not saying it doesn’t matter.  No, I’m not saying it doesn’t matter, either.  I’m saying there are multiple reasons for it.    

41. CATHY NEWMAN: Yes, but why should women put up with those reasons?

42. JORDAN PETERSON: I’m not saying that they should put up with it.  I’m saying that the claim that the wage gap between men and women is only due to sex is wrong.  And it is wrong.  There’s no doubt about that. The multivariate analysis has been done.  I can give you an example.  Wait! 

43. CATHY NEWMAN: A multivariate analysis.  I’m saying that that nine percent pay gap exists.

44. JORDAN PETERSON: Yeah.

45. CATHY NEWMAN: That’s a gap between men and women.  I’m not saying why it exists, but it exists.  Now, if you’re a woman, that seems pretty unfair.

46. JORDAN PETERSON: You have to say why it exists.       

47. CATHY NEWMAN: But do you agree that it’s unfair?  If you’re a woman …

48. JORDAN PETERSON: Not necessarily. 

49. CATHY NEWMAN: And, on average, you’re getting paid nine percent than a man.  That’s not fair, is it?

50. JORDAN PETERSON: That depends on why it’s happening.  I can give you an example.  OK..  There’s a personality trait known as agreeableness.  Agreeable people are compassionate and polite.  And agreeable people get paid less than less agreeable people for the same job.  Women are more agreeable than men. 

51. CATHY NEWMAN: Again, a vast generalisation.  Some women are not more agreeable than men.

52. JORDAN PETERSON: It’s not a generalisation.  Yes, that’s true, but ….  That’s right and some women get paid more than men. 

53. CATHY NEWMAN: So you’re saying that, by and large, women are too agreeable to get the pay rises that they deserve.

54. JORDAN PETERSON: No, I’m saying that....  I’m saying that that’s one component of a multivariate equation that predicts salary.  It accounts for maybe five percent of the variance – something like that.  We need about another eighteen factors, one of which is gender.  There is prejudice.  There’s no doubt about that, but it accounts for a much smaller proportion of the variance in the pay gap than the Radical Feminists claim. 

55. CATHY NEWMAN: OK, so, rather than denying that the pay gap exists, which is what you did at the beginning of this conversation, shouldn’t you say to women, “Rather than being agreeable and not asking for a pay rise, go and ask for a pay rise.”  Make yourself disagreeable with your boss. 

56. JORDAN PETERSON: Oh, definitely, there’s that.  But I also didn’t deny it existed.  I denied that it existed because of gender, because I’m very, very, very careful with my words

57. CATHY NEWMAN: So the pay gap exists – you accept that – but you’re saying – I mean, the pay gap between men and women exists – but you’re saying that it doesn’t exist because of gender.  It exists because women are too agreeable to ask for pay rises.

58. JORDAN PETERSON: That’s one of the reasons.

59. CATHY NEWMAN: OK, one of the reasons.  So why not get them to ask for a pay rise?

60. JORDAN PETERSON: I’ve done that.  I’ve done that many, many times in my career.  I’ve counselled…

61. CATHY NEWMAN: And they just don’t?

62. JORDAN PETERSON: Oh, they do that all the time!  One of the things you do, as a Clinical Psychologist, is assertiveness training.  So, you might say, often you treat people for anxiety and for depression and maybe the next most common category after that would be assertiveness training, and so I’ve had many, many women, extraordinarily competent women, in my clinical consulting practice and we’ve put together strategies for their career development that involve continual pushing, competing, for higher wages and often tripled their wages within a five-year period, teaching them how to negotiate.

63. CATHY NEWMAN: And you celebrate that?

64. JORDAN PETERSON: Of course!  Of course!

65. CATHY NEWMAN: So, do you agree that you would be happy if that pay gap were eliminated completely, because that’s all the Radical Feminists are saying.

66. JORDAN PETERSON: It would depend on how it was eradicated and how the disappearance of it was measured. 

67. CATHY NEWMAN: You’re saying that if it’s at the cost of men, then that’s a problem. 

68. JORDAN PETERSON: Oh, there are all sorts of things that it could be at the cost of.  It could even be at the cost of women’s own interests, so …

69. CATHY NEWMAN: Because they might not be happy if they got equal pay?

70. JORDAN PETERSON: No, because it might interfere with other things that are causing the pay gap that women are choosing to do.

71. CATHY NEWMAN: Like having children?

72. JORDAN PETERSON: Or choosing careers that actually happen to be paid less, which women do a lot of. 

73. CATHY NEWMAN: But why shouldn’t women have the right to choose not to have children, or the right to choose those demanding careers?

74. JORDAN PETERSON: They do.  They can.  Yeah, that’s fine. 

75. CATHY NEWMAN: And you’re saying that makes them unhappy, by and large. 

76. JORDAN PETERSON: No, I’m not saying that, and I actually haven’t said that so far in this programme. 

77. CATHY NEWMAN: You’re saying it makes them miserable.

78. JORDAN PETERSON: No, I said that what was making them miserable was having weak partners.  That makes them miserable.  I would say that many women between the age of 28 and 32 have a career-family crisis that they have to deal with and I think that’s partly because of the foreshortened time-frame women have to contend with.  Women have to get the major pieces of their life put together faster than men, which is partly why men aren’t under so much pressure to grow up.  So because for the typical woman, she has to have her career and family in order pretty much by the time she’s 35, because otherwise the options start to run out, so that puts a tremendous amount of stress on women, especially at the end of their twenties.

79. CATHY NEWMAN:  I’d like to take issue with the idea of the typical; woman, because – you know – all women are different.  I wanna just put another quote to you from the book…

80. JORDAN PETERSON: They’re different in some ways and the same in others. 

81. CATHY NEWMAN: OK, you say, “Women become more vulnerable when they have children.”

82. JORDAN PETERSON: Oh yes.

83. CATHY NEWMAN: You talked in one of your Youtube interviews about “crazy harpy sisters,” so, simple question: is gender equality a myth, in your view.  Is that something that is never going to happen?

84. JORDAN PETERSON: It depends on what you mean by “equality”.

85. CATHY NEWMAN: Women being treated fairly, getting the same opportunities.

86. JORDAN PETERSON: Fairly.  We could get to a point where people were treated fairly, or more fairly.  I mean, people are treated pretty fairly in Western culture already, but we could improve that. 

87. CATHY NEWMAN: But they’re not, really, are they?  Otherwise, why would there be only seven women running FTSE-100 companies in the UK?  Why would there still be a pay gap, which we’ve discussed?  Why are women at the BBC saying that they’re being paid, illegally, less than men to do the same job?  That’s not fair, is it?

88. JORDAN PETERSON: Let’s go to the first question.  Those are complicated questions.  Seven women….  Repeat that one.

89. CATHY NEWMAN: Seven women running the top FTSE-100 companies in the UK.

90. JORDAN PETERSON: The first question might be, “Why would you want to do that?”             

91. CATHY NEWMAN: Well, why would a man want to do it? 

92. JORDAN PETERSON: There’s a certain number of men – although not that many – who are perfectly willing to sacrifice virtually all of their life to the pursuit of a high-end career.  These are men who are very intelligent, they are usually very conscientious, they are very driven, they’re very high-energy, they’re very healthy and they’re willing to work seventy to eighty hours a week non-stop, specialised, at one thing, to get to the top. 

93. CATHY NEWMAN: So you’re saying women are just more sensible.  They don’t want that, because it’s not a nice life? 

94. JORDAN PETERSON: I’m saying that’s part of it, definitely and…

95. CATHY NEWMAN: So you don’t think there are barriers in their way that prevent them getting to the top?

96. JORDAN PETERSON: Oh, there are some barriers, like men, for example.  To get to the top of any organization is an incredibly competitive enterprise and the men that you’re competing against are simply not going to roll over and say, “Please take the position.”  It’s absolute all-out warfare. 

97. CATHY NEWMAN: Is gender equality a myth?

98. JORDAN PETERSON: I don’t know what you mean by the question.  Men and women aren’t the same and they won’t be the same.  That doesn’t mean they can’t be treated fairly. 

99. CATHY NEWMAN: Is gender equality desirable?

100. JORDAN PETERSON: If it means equality of outcome, then almost certainly it’s undesirable.  That’s already been demonstrated in Scandinavia, because in Scandinavia….

101. CATHY NEWMAN: What do you mean by that: “Equality of outcome is undesirable”?

102. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, men and women won’t sort themselves into the same categories if you leave them alone to do it of their own accord.  We’ve already seen that in Scandinavia.  Twenty to one female nurses to male.  Something like that.  It might not be quite that extreme.  And approximately the same male engineers to female engineers.  And that’s the result of the free choice of men and women in the societies that have gone further than any other societies to make gender equality the purpose of the law.  Those are ineradicable differences.  You can eradicate them with tremendous social pressure and tyranny, but if you leave men and women to make their own choices, you will not get equal outcomes. 

103. CATHY NEWMAN: So you’re saying that anyone who believes in equality, call them Feminists, call them whatever you want to call them, should basically give up, because it ain’t gonna happen.

104. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, only if they’re aiming at equality of outcome. 

105. CATHY NEWMAN: So you’re saying, “Give people equality of opportunity, that’s fine.” 

106. JORDAN PETERSON: Not only fine, it’s eminently desirable for everyone – for individuals and for Society. 

107. CATHY NEWMAN: But still women aren’t going to make it, that’s what you’re really saying.

108. JORDAN PETERSON: It depends on your measurement techniques.  They’re doing just fine in medicine.  In fact, there are far more female physicians than there are male physicians.  There are lots of disciplines that are absolutely dominated by women.  Many, many disciplines, and they’re doing great!  So…

109. CATHY NEWMAN: Let me put something else to you from the book.  You say, “The introduction of the ‘equal pay for equal work’ argument immediately complicates even salary comparison beyond practicality for one simple reason: Who decides what work is equal?  It’s not possible.”  So the simple question is: Do you believe in equal pay?

110. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, I made the argument there.  I said it depends….

111. CATHY NEWMAN: So you don’t believe in equal pay.

112. JORDAN PETERSON: Ha, Ha! No!  I’m not saying that at all! 

113. CATHY NEWMAN: Because a lot of people listening to you will just say, “Well, are we going back to the Dark Ages here?” 

114. JORDAN PETERSON: That’s because they’re actually not listening.  You’re just projecting what you think…

115. CATHY NEWMAN: I’m listening very carefully and I’m hearing you basically saying, “Women need to just accept that they’re never going to make it on equal terms” – “equal outcomes” is how you defined it.

116. JORDAN PETERSON: No, I didn’t say that.  I said that equal….

117. CATHY NEWMAN: If I was watching that, I’d go, “Well, I might as well just go and play with my Sindy dolls and give up trying at school, because I’m not going to get the top job I want, because there’s someone sitting there, saying it’s not possible and it’s not desirable.  It’s going to make you miserable.” 

118. JORDAN PETERSON: I said that equal outcomes weren’t desirable.  That’s what I said.

119. CATHY NEWMAN: Yeah.

120. JORDAN PETERSON: It’s a bad social goal.  I didn’t say that women shouldn’t be striving for the top, or anything like that, because I don’t believe that for a second. 

121. CATHY NEWMAN: Striving for the top, but you’re going to put all those hurdles in their way, as have been in their way for centuries, but that’s fine.  You’re saying that’s fine. The patriarchal system is just fine. 

122. JORDAN PETERSON: No, no!  I really think that’s silly!  I do.  I think that’s silly!  I really do.  I mean, look at your situation.  You’re hardly unsuccessful.

123. CATHY NEWMAN: Yeah, and I battled quite hard to get where I am.

124. JORDAN PETERSON: Exactly!  Good for you!

125. CATHY NEWMAN: That’s OK.  Battling is good. This is all about the fight. 

126. JORDAN PETERSON: Battling is inevitable.

127. CATHY NEWMAN: But you talk about men fighting.  Let me just put another thing to you…

128. JORDAN PETERSON: This is inevitable!    Why wouldn’t you have to battle for a high-quality position?

129. CATHY NEWMAN:             Well, I notice in your book you talk about real conversations between men containing, quote: “an underlying threat of physicality.”

130. JORDAN PETERSON: Oh, there’s no doubt about that!

131. CATHY NEWMAN: What about real conversations between women?  Is that something… or are we too amenable and reasonable? 

132. JORDAN PETERSON: No, it’s just that the domain of physical conflict is sort of off-limits for you.  It’s rather unfortunate.

133. CATHY NEWMAN: Well, you’ve just said that I’ve fought to get where I’ve got.  What does that make me – an honorary man, or something?

134. JORDAN PETERSON: I don’t imagine you…. Yeah, to some degree.  I suspect that you’re not very agreeable.

135. CATHY NEWMAN: So that’s the thing – I’m not very agreeable – successful women

136. JORDAN PETERSON: Right!  I’ve noticed that, actually, in this conversation!  And I’m sure it’s served your career well.

137. CATHY NEWMAN: Successful women, though, basically have to wear the trousers, in your view.  They have to sort of become men to succeed, is what you’re saying.  I had to fight to succeed, therefore I’m an honorary man.

138. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, if they’re going to compete against men, certainly masculine traits are going to be helpful.  I mean, one of the things I do in my counselling practice, for example, when I’m consulting with women  who are trying to advance their careers, is to teach them how to negotiate and to be able to say “No” and to not be easily pushed around and to be formidable.  And, if you’re going to be successful, you need to be smart, conscientious, and tough. 

139. CATHY NEWMAN: Now here’s a radical idea:  Why don’t the bosses -- the male bosses, shall we say, adopt some female traits, so women don’t have to fight and get their sharp elbows out for the pay rises.  It’s just accepted that, if they’re doing the same job, they get the same pay? 

140. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, I would say partly because it’s not so easy to determine what constitutes the same job. 

141. CATHY NEWMAN: That’s because, arguably, there are still men dominating our industries, our society, and therefore they’ve dictated the terms for so long, that women have to battle to be like the men.

142. JORDAN PETERSON: No, it’s not true.  It’s not true.  So, for example,

143. CATHY NEWMAN: Where’s the evidence?

144. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, I can give you an example very quickly.  I’ve worked with women who’ve worked in high-powered law firms in Canada for about fifteen years and they were as competent and put-together as anybody you would ever meet and we were trying to figure out how to further their careers.  And there was a huge debate in Canadian society at that point, that basically ran along the same lines as your argument, that, if these law firms didn’t use these masculine criteria, then perhaps women would do better, but the market sets the damn game.  It’s like,

145. CATHY NEWMAN: And the market is dominated by men.  What I’m asking you….

146. JORDAN PETERSON: No.  It’s not.  It’s not.  The market is dominated by women.  They make eighty percent of the consumer decisions.  That’s not the case at all!  Eighty percent …

147. CATHY NEWMAN:  You’re talking about people who stay at home, looking after children.  By and large, they are still women.  So they are going out doing the shopping, but that is changing. 

148. JORDAN PETERSON: They make all the consumer decisions.  The market is driven by women – not men. OK.  And if you’re a lawyer in Canada…

149. CATHY NEWMAN:  And they still pay more for the same sort of goods. That’s been proven.  That men….  If you buy a blue bicycle helmet, it’s going to cost less than a pink one.  Anyway, we’ll come onto that.

150. JORDAN PETERSON: It’s partly because men are less agreeable.  Right, so they won’t put up with it. 

151. CATHY NEWMAN: I want to ask you: Is it not desirable to have some of those “female traits” – I’d say that was a generalisation, but you’ve used the words “female traits” – is it not desirable to have some of them for the top of business?  Maybe there would not have been a banking crisis. 

152. JORDAN PETERSON: They don’t predict success in the workplace.  The things that predict success in the workplace are intelligence and conscientiousness.  Agreeableness negatively predicts success in the workplace.  And so does high negative emotion. 

153. CATHY NEWMAN: You’re saying that women are not intelligent enough to run these top companies?

154. JORDAN PETERSON: No.  I didn’t say that at all. 

155. CATHY NEWMAN:  You said that female traits don’t predict success.

156. JORDAN PETERSON: But I didn’t say that intelligence and conscientiousness weren’t female traits. 

157. CATHY NEWMAN: But you were saying, by implication, that intelligence and conscientiousness weren’t female traits. 

158. JORDAN PETERSON: Oh no, no!!  No, I’m not saying that.  I’m not saying that at all! 

159. CATHY NEWMAN: Are women less intelligent than men?

160. JORDAN PETERSON: No. No, they’re not.  The data on that’s pretty clear.  The average IQ for women and the average IQ for men is identical.  There is some debate about the flatness of the distribution, which is something that James Damore pointed out, for example, in his memo, but there’s no difference at all in general cognitive ability.  There’s no difference to speak of in conscientiousness.  Women are a bit more orderly than men and men are a bit more industrious than women, but the difference isn’t big.  That averages into conscientiousness. 

161. CATHY NEWMAN: There are plenty of men who aren’t necessarily all that industrious.

162. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, of course!  But you asked me a question!

163. CATHY NEWMAN: But why are they,,,,

164. JORDAN PETERSON: Feminine traits.

165. CATHY NEWMAN:  Feminine traits.  Why are they not desirable at the top of (inaudible).

166. JORDAN PETERSON: It’s hard to say.  I’m just laying out the empirical evidence.  We know the traits that predict success. 

167. CATHY NEWMAN: But we also know, because companies have not been dominated by women, by and large, over the centuries, we have nothing to compare it to.  It’s an experiment. 

168. JORDAN PETERSON: True!  And it might well be the case that, if companies modified their behaviour and became more feminine, they would be successful, but there’s no evidence for it. 

169. CATHY NEWMAN:  But you’re doubtful.

170. JORDAN PETERSON: I’m neither doubtful nor non-doubtful.  There’s no evidence for it.

171. CATHY NEWMAN: Then why not give it a go, as the Radical Feminists would say?

172. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, that’s fine!  If someone wants to start a company and make it more feminine and compassionate, say, and caring in its overall orientation towards its workers and towards the marketplace, than that’s a perfectly reasonable experiment to run.  My point is that there’s no evidence that those traits predict success in the workplace and there’s evidence….

173. CATHY NEWMAN: Because it’s never been tried!

174. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, that’s not really the case.  Women have been in the workplace since at least ever since I’ve been around the representation of women in the workplace has been around fifty percent, so we’ve run the experiment for a fairly reasonable period of time, but not, you know, certainly not for centuries.

175. CATHY NEWMAN: Let me move on to another debate that’s been very controversial for you.  You got in trouble for refusing to call Trans men and women by their preferred personal pronouns. 

176. JORDAN PETERSON: It’s not actually true.  I got in trouble because I said I would not follow the compelled speech dictates of the Federal and Provincial government.  I actually never got in trouble for not calling any one anything.

177. CATHY NEWMAN: Right. 

178. JORDAN PETERSON: That didn’t happen.

179. CATHY NEWMAN: You wouldn’t follow the change of law which was designed to outlaw discrimination.

180. JORDAN PETERSON: Not once it was law, no.  No.  Well, that’s what they said it was designed to do. 

181. CATHY NEWMAN: You cited freedom of speech in that.  Why should your right to freedom of speech trump a Trans person’s right not to be offended?

182. JORDAN PETERSON: Because, in order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive.  I mean, look at the conversation we’re having right now.  You know, like, you’re certainly willing to risk offending me in the pursuit of truth.  Why should you have the right to do that?  It’s been rather uncomfortable. 

183. CATHY NEWMAN: Well, I’m very glad I’ve put you on the spot! 

184. JORDAN PETERSON: But you get my point?  It’s like, you’re doing what you should do, which is digging a bit to find out what the hell’s going on, and that is what you should do, but you’re exercising your freedom of speech to certainly risk offending me!  And that’s fine!  I think, more power to you, as far as I am concerned. 

185. CATHY NEWMAN: Except you haven’t sat there and… I’m just trying to work that out, I mean…

186. JORDAN PETERSON: Hah!  Gotcha!!

187. CATHY NEWMAN: You have got me.  You have got me.  I’m just trying to work that through in my head.  It took a while. It took a while.  It took a while.  You have voluntarily come into this studio and agreed to be questioned.  A Trans person in your class has come to your class and said they wanted to be called “she”.

188. JORDAN PETERSON: That’s never happened.  And I would call them “she”.

189. CATHY NEWMAN: So you would.  So you’ve kind of changed your tune on that. 

190. JORDAN PETERSON: No.  No. I said that right from the beginning.  What I said at the beginning was that I was not going to cede the linguistic territory to Radical Leftists, regardless of whether or not it was put in law.  That’s what I said.  And then the people who came after me said, “Oh, you must be transphobic and you mistreat a student in your class.”  I never mistreated a student in my class, I’m not transphobic and that isn’t what I said. 

191. CATHY NEWMAN:  Well, you’ve also called Trans campaigners authoritarian, haven’t you?  Isn’t that…?

192. JORDAN PETERSON: Only in the broader context of my claim that Radical Leftist ideologues are authoritarian, which they are. 

193. CATHY NEWMAN: You’re saying that someone who’s trying to work out their gender identity, who may well have struggled with that, had quite a tough time over the years…

194. JORDAN PETERSON: No doubt may have struggled with it, yeah.

195. CATHY NEWMAN: You’re comparing them with, you know, Chairman Mao, who caused the deaths of millions of people. 

196. JORDAN PETERSON: No, just the activists.  Just the activists.

197. CATHY NEWMAN: Well, even if the activists – you know, they’re Trans people too.  They have a right to say these things. 

198. JORDAN PETERSON: But they don’t have a right to speak for the whole community.

199. CATHY NEWMAN: Isn’t it grossly insensitive to compare them to Chairman Mao – you know, I could -- or Pinochet, Augusto Pinochet?  I mean, this is grossly insensitive, isn’t it?

200. JORDAN PETERSON: I didn’t compare them to Pinochet.  I did compare them to Mao. 

201. CATHY NEWMAN: Well, Pinochet is an authoritarian.

202. JORDAN PETERSON: He’s a Right-Winger, though.  I was comparing them to the Left-Wing authoritarians.  And I do believe they are Left-Wing totalitarians.

203. CATHY NEWMAN: Under Mao, millions of people died. 

204. JORDAN PETERSON: Right.

205. CATHY NEWMAN: I mean, there’s no comparison between Mao and a Trans activist, is there?

206. JORDAN PETERSON: Why not?

207. CATHY NEWMAN: Because Trans activists aren’t killing millions of people?

208. JORDAN PETERSON: The philosophy that’s guiding their utterances is the same philosophy. 

209. CATHY NEWMAN: The consequences are..

210. JORDAN PETERSON: Not yet!

211. CATHY NEWMAN: You’re saying that Trans activists could lead to the deaths of millions of people?

212. JORDAN PETERSON: No. No, I’m saying that the philosophy that drives their utterances is the same as the philosophy that already has driven us to the deaths of millions of people. 

213. CATHY NEWMAN:  OK, tell us how that philosophy is in anyway comparable.

214. JORDAN PETERSON: Sure, that’s no problem!  The first thing is that their philosophy presumes that group identity is paramount.  That’s the fundamental philosophy that drove the Soviet Union and Maoist China and it’s the fundamental philosophy of the Left-Wing activists.  It’s identity politics.  Doesn’t matter who you are as an individual.  It matters who you are in terms of your group identity. 

215. CATHY NEWMAN: you’re just saying that to provoke, aren’t you?  I mean, you are a provocateur.

216. JORDAN PETERSON: Not a bit!  I never say anything…

217. CATHY NEWMAN: You’re like the Alt Right that you hate to be compared to.  You want to stir things up.

218. JORDAN PETERSON: I’m only a provocateur insofar as, when I say what I believe to be true, it’s provocative.  I don’t provoke.  Maybe for humour. 

219. CATHY NEWMAN: You don’t set out to provoke.

220. JORDAN PETERSON: Now and then.  I’m not interested in provoking. 

221. CATHY NEWMAN: What about the thing about, you know, fighting and…the lobster?  Tell us about the lobster.

222. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, that’s quite a segue!  The first chapter I have in my book is called, “Stand up straight with your shoulders back”, and it’s an injunction to be combative – not least, to further your career, let’s say – but also to adopt a stance of ready engagement with the World and to reflect that in your posture.  And the reason that I write about lobsters is that there’s this idea that hierarchical structures are a Sociological construct of the Western Patriarchy and that is so untrue that it’s almost unbelievable and I use the lobster as an example, because we diverged from lobsters in evolutionary history about 350 million years ago.  Common ancestor.  And lobsters exist in hierarchies and have a nervous system attuned to the hierarchy and that nervous system runs on serotonin, just like our nervous systems do.  And the nervous system of the lobster and of the human being is so similar that antidepressants work on lobsters and it’s part my attempt to demonstrate that the idea of hierarchy has nothing to do with Socio-Cultural construction, which it doesn’t.

223. CATHY NEWMAN:    Let’s just get this straight.  You’re saying that we should organise our societies along the lines of the lobsters?

224. JORDAN PETERSON: I’m saying that it’s inevitable that there will be continuity between the way that animals and human beings organise their structures.  It’s absolutely inevitable.  And there is one third of a million years of evolutionary history behind that.  Right.  That’s so long that a third of a billion years ago there weren’t even trees.  It’s a long time.  You have a mechanism in your brain that runs on serotonin that’s similar to the lobster mechanism that tracks your status.  And the higher your status, the better your emotions are regulated.  So, as your serotonin levels increase, you feel more positive emotion and less negative emotion.

225. CATHY NEWMAN: So you’re saying that, like lobsters, we’re hard-wired, as men and women, to do certain things, to sort of run along tram-lines and there’s nothing we can do about it? 

226. JORDAN PETERSON: No, I’m not saying there’s nothing we can do about it, because it’s like a… in a chess game, right, there are lots of things that you can do, although you can’t break the rules of the chess game and continue to play chess.  Your biological nature is somewhat like that.  It sets the rules of the game, but within those rules you have a lot of leeway.  But the idea that… But one thing we can’t do is say that hierarchy is a consequence of the Capitalist Patriarchy.  That’s patently absurd.  It’s wrong.  It’s not a matter of opinion.  It’s seriously wrong.    

227. CATHY NEWMAN: Aren’t you just whipping people up into a state of anger and …

228. JORDAN PETERSON: Not at all!

229. CATHY NEWMAN: Divisions between men and women.  You’re stirring people up.  Any critics of you online get absolutely lambasted by your followers….(inaudible)

230. JORDAN PETERSON: And by me, generally. 

231. CATHY NEWMAN:  Sorry, your critics get lambasted by you?

232. JORDAN PETERSON: If they’re academics.

233. CATHY NEWMAN:  Isn’t that irresponsible?  Ok..

234. JORDAN PETERSON: Not at all!  If an academic is going to come after me and tell me that I’m not qualified and that I don’t know what I’m talking about?     

235. CATHY NEWMAN: Would you consider saying to your followers now, “Quit the abuse, quit the anger!”?

236. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, we’d need some substantial examples of the abuse and the anger before I could detail that question. 

237. CATHY NEWMAN: There’s a lot of it out there.

238. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, let’s take a more general perspective on that.  I have had 25,000 letters since June -- something like that – from people who’ve told me that I’ve brought them back from the brink of destruction and so I’m perfectly willing to put that up against the the rather vague accusations that my followers are making the lives of the people that I’ve targeted miserable. 

239. CATHY NEWMAN:  Jordan Peterson, thank you!

See also:

Summary Haiku:

Men have no rights,
but aren't less human.
We blame sexism.