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Maori Party Interview on the New Zealand Constitution (revised transcript)

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Transcript of Interview of Maori Party co-leader Rawiri Waititi on TV3's Newshub Nation show about the New Zealand constitution on 3rd July 2021
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/07/not-in-a-democracy-m-ori-party-co-leader-rawiri-waititi-outlines-his-vision-for-a-tiriti-centric-aotearoa-where-the-majority-doesn-t-rule-over-m-ori.html

(I have indicated in green, at various points, how many minutes and seconds of the interview have elapsed so far. I may also add comments in future.)

 

  1. Newshub Nation: The controversial "He Puapua" report was written as part of a process to (sic) fulfilling our commitments to the UN. Authored by an independent group, it recommends a refocus on Rangatiratanga -- Maori self-determination. It also reignited claims it is the road to separatism. (0:14) Well, to discuss this, joining me now is Maori Party Co-Leader, Rawiri Waititi. Tena koe. Thanks for your time. Good morning. So, He Puapua says by 2040 Governments should be sharing power with Maori more fairly. What does that look like?

  2. Rawiri Waititi: Well, it looks like the true intent of what the Treaty of Watangi was about in the first place. And so, Article One was about allowing for Kawanatanga -- not sovereignty, not ownership, but custodianship and governance.

  3. Newshub Nation: Right.

  4. Rawiri Waititi: And Article Two was about Tino Rangatiratanga. And so, we haven't been able to align in that particular space yet. And the third part was about mana orite (?), which was to be treated as equal citizens in this country. (0:53).

  5. Newshub Nation: OK.

  6. Rawiri Waititi: And so, I think we are having, I think, a mature and adult conversation about actually what was the true inmtent of the Treaty of Waitangi and Whakaputanga, 1835, and I'm sure we can have that (1:04) ....

  7. Newshub Nation: All right, we'll work out whether we're mature enough to have that conversation in a moment. Do you think that some of this is generally already happening. I mean, management of D.O.C. estates, Kura, Kohanga Reo, Papakainga -- even the establishment of a Maori Health Authority. (1:17) So this co-governance is already there?

  8. Rawiri Waititi: Well, I think that constitutional change doesn't mean trying to fit Rangi's foot into Cinderella's slipper.

  9. Newshub Nation: Ha! Ha! OK.

  10. Rawiri Waititi: This is about constitutional transformation, where we can sit around the table and actually look at what does Tino Rangatiratanga for Maori look like, and what it doesn't look like is working within a Westminster system...

  11. Newshub Nation: Right. (1:39)

  12. Rawiri Waititi: ... to find solutions to problems

  13. Newshub Nation: So you're saying that the...

  14. Rawiri Waititi: that have been created by that system.

  15. Newshub Nation: OK. So you're saying that the examples I've just listed are just like, you know, they're just piecemeal -- like bandaids -- rather than looking at the whole system. (1:49)

  16. Rawiri Waititi: I wouldn't say they're bandaids, but -- um -- there needs to be ... where's the development from there, and then how do we start moving Maori to being more in control of their own destiny and in control of their own orana (?) ? You know, I think the UN declaration -- and I just want to acknowledge Peter Sharples and I want to acknowledge the National Party of that time, who saw the foresight of that particular bill...

  17. Newshub Nation: ... who signed up to the (2:11) Declaration.

  18. Rawiri Waititi: And now the Labour Party have said, "Actually, we need to start implementing this," and so we're quite happy, as the Maori Party, that everybody else has picked this up.

  19. Newshub Nation: OK. (2:21). So, does He Puapua give you the roadmap? Is that ... If you look at He Puapua, is that what you want?

  20. Rawiri Waititi: He Puapua only came out yesterday. We're talking about transforming our Constitution, based on the founding documents of this country: Te Whakaputanga, the Declaration of Independence, 1835, Te Tiriti o Waitangi, in 1840, and then we've also had the (Maitiki Mai?) Report, that's been out for a few years now.

  21. Newshub Nation: About constitutional reform.

  22. Rawiri Waititi: That's right, about constitutional reform, and I think, like I said, we need to have an adult and mature conversation about what that looks like, moving forward.

  23. Newshub Nation: Let's talk about some concrete examples from He Puapua. It suggests an Upper House of Parliament which has a power-sharing arrangement -- 50:50 Maori:Non-Maori representation. What do you think of an Upper House like that?

  24. Rawiri Waititi: Um, we need to...

  25. Newshub Nation: I don't think you like it.

  26. Rawiri Waititi: Look, we need to tease that out a little bit more about what that might look like. In the Matiki Mai (?) Report, also talks about a tripartite type of relationship, where Tino Rangatiratanga is acknowledged, for Maori, where Kawanatanga is also acknowledged and then there is this joining of the two in the third part of that ....

  27. Newshub Nation: In the middle. OK.

  28. Rawiri Waititi: Yes.

  29. Newshub Nation: But in your (3:30) maiden speech, you went further than an Upper House. You said, you -- in fact -- you demanded a Maori Parliament.

  30. Rawiri Waititi: That's right!

  31. Newshub Nation: You stand by that, right?

  32. Rawiri Waititi: Yes, absolutely! That's absolutely different to having an Upper House.

  33. Newshub Nation: That is right!

  34. Rawiri Waititi: We want to be in total control of our sovereignty.

  35. Newshub Nation: That is a separate Parliament, right?

  36. Rawiri Waititi: Yes, that's right.

  37. Newshub Nation: How would that work? Would it be democratically elected, or would it be appointed -- representatives appointed -- Iwis or Hapus?

  38. Rawiri Waititi: You hear words like "co-governance" and "co-design", and things like that, but actually we want to design and (3:54) we want the Government to now align, because, if we're designing, we're not going to create solutions. We are the solutions to many of the dysfunctions that this state has created amongst our people, so...

  39. Newshub Nation: Sure!

  40. Rawiri Waititi: We want our own sovereignty, which is Tino Rangatiratanga, (4:09) which Article Two promised us.

  41. Newshub Nation: I understand that. I understand that has been promised, as you say, but what does it look like? I mean... , (4:16) and can you give me an example of how, in your mind, a Maori Parliament would look?

  42. Rawiri Waititi: Well, look at the Tuhoe settlement. That wasn't co-governance. That was Tuhoe sovereignty and so the transition of assets back to Tuhoe will show how, actually, this can work and Tuhoe's probably an example of how they have been able to negotiate within the system to come up with their own..., with their own sovereign solutions to their problems.

  43. Newshub Nation: OK. And so if a Maori Parliament, if a Member of a Maori Parliament is selected, not elected, how are they going to be held accountable? Are they just going to be held accountable to their own Iwi or Hapu?

  44. Rawiri Waititi: Well, that's exactly right, because that's how it's always been. Before the arrival of Pakeha to this country, (5:03) we were answerable to ourselves and so this is just a realignment of being undisturbed of our taonga, of our possessions and so this is what we're saying, is that we can have an adult conversation about this, but let's honour the first document. He Puapua came out yesterday. Let's honour the first document, that's been here for over 180 years.

  45. Newshub Nation: Let's get rid of He Puapua for the moment. Do you think the Government (5:23) buried He Puapua?

  46. Rawiri Waititi: Oh, well! They've said that they're not going to use it as the roadmap.

  47. Newshub Nation:Yeah, that's right!

  48. Rawiri Waititi: They want to go out and do some more consultation. My concern would be the wider New Zealand -- because this is what happens in partnership. So partnership is democracy and democracy is majority rules. (5:41) And so we lose out again. And so shouldn't indigenous peoples be coming up with indigenous solutions to their oranga? Why would you leave it to a majority, then, to decide the fate of indigenous peoples, because that's what been happening all over the World for many, many years. (5:56)

  49. Newshub Nation: In the consultation process that the Government has outlined this week, it's going to talk to Iwi first and then the wider consultation period. Do you believe that the wider consultation period should not happen?

  50. Rawiri Waititi: The wider consultation period, and the process, usually dominates what actually indigenous peoples want. (6:13) And that's what happens all over the World.

  51. Newshub Nation: And you think that your voice will get lost again.

  52. Rawiri Waititi: It gets lost everywhere. It gets lost everywhere. We've had to take (attack?) a racist policy in councils which did the same thing around Maori wards. And so this is what happens. In a democracy, where people say it's fair, but actually it's not fair against indigenous peoples, because, like I said, the majority rules. (6:33)

  53. Newshub Nation: OK, so let's talk about that, because critics of Te Puapua say that it recommends a political sytem based on race, rather than on the democratic principle of everybody being equal. So you say to them, "Forget that?" I mean, that's not how we should be based?

  54. Rawiri Waititi: No. I think the country should be having a conversation about being a Tiriti-centric Aotearoa and a Tititi-centric Aoatearoa has the mana -- equal mana -- of Tangata Whenua and Tangata Tiriti. And so Tangata Whenua and Tangata Tiriti is the birth -- I think -- of a true Tiriti-centric Aotearoa, (7:06) Tangata Tiriti being Non-Maori who are committed to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, righting the wrongs of yesterday and looking forward to a more positive and prosperous Aotearoa.

  55. Newshub Nation: A more equitable one.

  56. Rawiri Waititi: A more equitable one.

  57. Newshub Nation: OK, but some people -- the critics -- say that it's a road to separatism, going down (7:24) this road. What do you say to them? I mean, that's been the argument from National and....

  58. Rawiri Waititi: We've been on the road to separatism for 180 years...

  59. Newshub Nation: Yeah.

  60. Rawiri Waititi: And so, if we look at a Tiriti-centric Aotearoa, I think we'll be -- we'll probably be -- the best nation in the World, heading down this track! Is that you've got Tangata Whenua, Tangata Tiriti equally making decisions, equitably making decisions for our people and actually moving New Zealand, which seems to be -- everybody thinks it's in the Atlantic Ocean somewhere -- and realigning it back into Polynesia, back into (inaudible).

  61. Newshub Nation: OK, we've seen the political arguments and the political debate from, like, National and Act, (8:00) about separatism, but what about the public themselves? Do you think they're more on board with this than the political opposition?

  62. Rawiri Waititi: Absolutely! There's a generation of Tangata Tiriti on the rise and this is a young, intelligent generation that know the injustices of the past but are committed to working towards a Tiriti-centric Aotearoa.

  63. Newshub Nation: Right! So you're -- are you positive?

  64. Rawiri Waititi: I'm absolutely positive!

  65. Newshub Nation: OK.

  66. Rawiri Waititi: That that's happening. I feel that when I go to the universities to talk. I feel that when I go to the mainstream schools. (8:30) But even those sorts of words -- "mainstream, "general", "roll" (?) -- all those sorts of things -- it actually puts Maoris in second place, because you're not mainstream, you're not the general public -- you're Maori -- and so we've got to start looking at "Tangata Tiriti", "Tangata Whenua" and start using the narrative that our people intended this country to be.

  67. Newshub Nation: OK, when you see the Opposition criticising, say, the notion of "partnership" and power-sharing with Maori, does it make you look back and say, "Why did the Maori Party get into bed with the National Party in the first place and how long they could govern like that?" (9:00) I mean, does it disappoint you?

  68. Rawiri Waititi: Well, look, this is the system that we're currently in. It's the Westminster system and our people have tried to manipulate and to work in this system for a long, long time, but I think it's time to start looking at some new systems, where it's more equitable and more equal for indigenous peoples (sic) here in this country.

  69. Newshub Nation: OK, does that mean that at the next election you can rule out working with National or Act as a Maori Party?

  70. Rawiri Waititi: Well, at the moment, I wouldn't work with them at all -- just the rhetoric that's coming out of those particualr parties. They don't align, they don't align with us.

  71. Newshub Nation: OK. (9:30)

  72. Rawiri Waititi: I don't say that Maori... that we don't look at working with anybody, you know. We've got to make sure that their policies, their principles align with ours.

  73. Newshub Nation: OK. All right. Just quickly: hate speech. (inaudible) what you say is a rise in hate speech against Maori, but hate speech laws have been proposed now. Does that address your concerns?

  74. Rawiri Waititi: Ah... no it doesn't, because the Law hasn't been implemented and this type of rhetoric and propaganda has been driven by the National and Act Party, which -- I believe -- has brought (sic) rise to (10:03) this more racial disharmony in this country.

  75. Newshub Nation: So you're saying that National and Act have sort of -- you know -- incited....

  76. Rawiri Waititi: Yes, they've fueled it -- absolutely!

  77. Newshub Nation: They've fueled it -- the hate speech?

  78. Rawiri Waititi: Absolutely! Absolutely!

  79. Newshub Nation: Hate speech against Maori?

  80. Rawiri Waititi: Absolutely! Well, here's the difference. So, when you're using words like "separatism" and "apartheid," you talk to people who have lived in those regimes and you tell me how much love was in there and whether there was freedom of speech. It was hate speech. When you're talking about apartheid and you look at what happened in South Africa and places like that -- even America itself, (10:30) you know, where they had separatism -- those are not very nice words to be using and enforcing onto indigenous peoples. We do not... those words do not belong to us, nor do those ideologies.

  81. Newshub Nation: So are you denying their opportunity to use those kinds of words, or are you denying their opportunity to raise those kinds of questions?

  82. Rawiri Waititi: Well, it's hard for you to use those words against indigenous peoples, who have had to live through regimes like apartheid and separatism and so, absolutely, that creates a space for people then to start (11:00) working their way... working their narrative against indigenous peoples -- and in Aotearoa as Tangata Whenua.

  83. Newshub Nation: Well, given what you've experienced, since you've been in Parliament, has it been a culture-shock for you?

  84. Rawiri Waititi: Absolutely. And so, you're in the public face and what you do -- you do get hate speech and you do get....

  85. Newshub Nation: Because you walked out of Parliament, saying Judith Collins was asking too many racist questions.

  86. Rawiri Waititi: Well, the thing is, you can't call anybody "racist" in Parliament, but you're allowed to say racist things. (11:33)

  87. Newshub Nation: Right.

  88. Rawiri Waititi: And so, when you're using "separatism" and "apartheid" against an indigenous peoples (sic) -- you know -- that sounds like... Ah... an oxymoron to me.

  89. Newshub Nation: Are you enjoying yourself in Parliament?

  90. Rawiri Waititi: I am!

  91. Newshub Nation: OK. In your maiden speech, you took your tie off. You called it "a colonial noose" and now ties aren't compulsory, so you made immediate change.

  92. Newshub Nation: I am going to ask you: "What is the next change that you want to implement?"

  93. Rawiri Waititi: Well, the next change is, I think, we need to start looking (12:00) at how Maori can participate more equally and equitably in that particular space in a Tiriti-centric Aotearoa -- not in a democracy, because -- like I said -- democracy is The Majority Rules and indigenous peoples -- especially Maori, at 16% of the population in this country -- will lose out and we'll sit in second place again.

  94. Newshub Nation: Tena koe. Thank you for your time, Rawini Waititi, Co-Leader of the Maori Party.

 

 

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